An interesting interview- thank you. Frank's take on a number of themes come across as well informed and credible. The discussion on the 3 reasons for non performance of junior miners was right on the button. It would have been good to hear more on whether and how this will change. My view is that perhaps it won't. Unless a company becomes a target for a company takeover. Cash flow alone doesn't seem to move the needle any more. Perhaps, the commodity alone (with it's slow and steady assent) is the better play for the average investor rather than having to deal with all the other potential landmines associated with a mining company. Living with smaller upside is certainly more comfortable than these 50% declines that seem to happen all too easy in this game.
It was welcome to see Frank being more open regards Bitcoin than previously. Fair play to him considering he has been so focused on the metals. Perhaps he's read Saifedean Ammous also. I would push back on the comments on BTC being purely a risk asset. I think the turmoil of the past days showed an interesting development. Bitcoin held up much better than anything else bar treasuries. Better than gold. It's uncorrelated to the financial system and should act as such. I think it will ultimately morph into that. It hasn't until now. Will we look back at the events of the events of the last few days and see that as the point when it started to act like an uncorrelated asset?
History of humanimal is Groundhog Day … & Bill Gates (et al) never, ever becomes Bill Murray & so never gains “enlightenment” nor gets Andie McDowell “in the end”s justifies the Epstein Island means.
“Same shit (which is the end in “question”), different day,” used to be a saying.
Doom/hope loops are the same loop, “reset” & synonyms are OCD locking/unlocking the doors (of perception? Huxley: was he fer it, agin it, or just an objective interlocutor of this electric chairway to heaven?) is an art(of the con)esian well-spring of sugar cereal (froot loops) that is its own cause & its own effect & solipsism metastasis unbounded within the all too bounded function that is h sapiens (a misnomer of conceit).
(Kelloggs has long since gone Kellanova.
“In 1876, John Harvey Kellogg became the superintendent of the Battle Creek Sanitarium (originally the Western Health Reform Institute founded by Ellen White), and his brother, W. K. Kellogg, worked as the bookkeeper. This is where corn flakes were created and led to the eventual formation of the Kellogg Company.”
Flakes & nuts, far & wide … see the “experiments” in “social proof” clocking how long it takes sanity to go along get along when it is committed to asylumerica, or any of the other tribal-thumping chapters on the map that isn’t the place/s at all.)
It won’t be an improvement for most people.
Just as the last 50 years, or so, haven’t been an improvement for most people.
Just as the honeybloodmeridianmoon post ww2 wasn’t an improvement, or that time frame’s cast & crew “the greatest.”*
*I was overly fond of Ali in my boy-time. But alas a whole lotta push-button reset OCD there. Jack Cashill’s Sucker Punch: The Hard Left Hook That Dazed Ali & Killed King’s Dream … & don’t even get me started on *that* King of Reset & Roll … suffice to say “competing” factions of oleaginous oligarch dry-gulchers will always be with ye.
Good old gold. Maybe the original & still best essential/non-essential business … as decided by the essential-on-high ones (or the high on their “essentialness” ones).
The gold cycle: it’s money, it’s legal, it’s not money, it’s illegal. Lather, rinse-in-an-acid-bath-&-skim-a-percentage, repeat. The mooch-masses love the laundromat: cleanliness is next to godliness, render unto seizer, etc.
State-controlled institutions amassing good old gold are weapons wielded by … precipitate individuals.
The geese of the golden egg clutch, & grasp, & hoard, & for-we-but-not-for-thee gaggle are archaeopteryx in geese-disguise. That’s a flying crocodile, ya’ll.
You will own nothing - batches? - but you will subscribe to the notion that you do - we don’t need no stinkin’ batches! - & you will be happy - Treasure of the Sierra Madre
If enough guillotines could be robotized to auto reset-decapitate the “principate”-precipitate & run continuously until all those essential to the problems ones were solved, then, & only then, would a reset worth the name be possible.
That’s just a spitball, tho, without a snowball’s chance in hell.
To hell & gone away to Uruguay, etc, may be the best anyone can do if they can do.
But … it isn’t as if Alias Smith & Casey Jones rode Conestogas, lightening load along way - mother misses her piano & bone china - to that new-old frontier.
Time & place “timing” & luck of the flop-draw … are not usually quantified accurately.
A is the first vowel but E(mbezzlement) is the largest trowel that asphalt-redacts the books.
Count blessings accurately … & include those in pitches so as not to be gov contract asphalt-patchers of the angiogenic, tumor-feeding, roman roads.
And /or as the man told the boy at the end of The Road, “Stay off the roads.”
Wonder what ol’ Cormac thought of ol’ Huxley. I’d bet heavy he had that one’s number.
A smidge of hope, positivity, goes a long way. Beyond that is too much, snare/delusion/con - always has been. Is how Ali took Foreman (hope-a-dope) & is how those black muslims took Ali.
Hopebacked turtles all the way down, mostly.
And Melville’s spermy Moby just shakes his battering ram head: wtf is wrong with you people?
Moby don’t blow thar bubbles, he just exhales. It’s the Essexian Pequodian I’m-sold salers (saylors, too) that blow bubbles until pop goes those weasels.
Incentives? No. Nobody forces most of these bribes. You take the bribe, you do the time.
And marks will remain irrational longer than water on the blue, depressed, great depression, planet will remain the universal solvent that Moby continuously lurks within.
Not only can “you keep saying something that’s not true” all the youse to whom it may concern & apply must continue to keep on plying the lying. Eagles eyes again: You Can’t Hide Your Lying Eyes.
Trump is a bully is weak. Whale-ship Essex Empires are bully pulpits are weak. Social proof people who are bullied & who bully themselves to go along with ahab/ituate after ahab/ituate after ahab/ituate are weak ahab/itches … so to speak.
H sapiens most incipient-burgeoning characteristic & quality is weakness. And the qualitative easest-weakest “they” minorities have trapped the quantitaive easest-weakest majorities … as usual.
The weak eat the weak & “identify as” strong. Always has it been thus & better bet that it will continue. At least until morale improves.
Essex lunchables shipmates, Apocalypto “sacrificial” offerings to the masses-god … this was a fun one, & much truer that typical Louis L’Amour formulaics, Ravenous:
Hotel California, yes. Leaving after checking out is impossible because Get(ing) Over It is impossible … & because merely getting over is the fever-dream of too many:
Smiling, chuckling, about “singularity” wet dream great “replacements” “culling” of all the “useless eaters” is not a good look.
Besides, after “they’ve” come for all the usual Neimoller suspects (socialists, trade unionists, jews), if it ever got that far, they’d be coming for youse, too. Even in Uruguay.
Neither is Kurzweil’s fantasy to use tech to become a female hard-used by a good look.
Heart of Darkness Col Kurtz/weil is a freak. Harari is a freak. Don’t Die Bryan Johnson is a freak … & the recent gab-fest he had with Mike Israetel who shared his own tech-mediated/facilitated sex-drenched desires is a freaks of a feather dodo bird gasp, too.
All this nerd’s & enginerds’ revenge* stuff is not going to surmount the pathological hubris/compensation which fuels it.
“Power” doesn’t feed anybody - but it does feed upon itself. It’s a self-modulating, but never correcting, appetite disorder. The non-tech term already mentioned for this nutbag is “freaks.”
*I have wondered if maybe more spartan-stoic-like how things would be different if youngsters formative years included as a matter of course years of self-defense & racing training before they were turned loose on the world’s otherwise-designed roman roads. Fewer pocket-protector pipsqueaks with murderous chips on shoulders perhaps.
“Like skyscrapers” that implode into footprint @freefall … same as the continuous compulsion to Babel Tower “build” does.
Apparently there is no number of rhyming refrains adequate to inform sensibilities away from “this time its different.”
Not enough poetic sensibility I suppose.
Too much LH dominance … well, “dominance.”
Linear item vetos do not cookbook away spiral reality. Ever.
Graham Hancock, probably others, speak to the comings & goings of Techowski brothers (now “siblings”) & “power.”
Wachowskis did comics. Then became cartoons.
Those “boys” are the poster children for the wanted posters that contain the V for Vendetta visages of all the bounties that are soon or late, Nero or far-oh!, collected on all the freaks whose pathological appetites drive & consume them & their fellow travelers.
“Wealth.” Can be stolen. Is stolen. Stolen on a massive scale. But once stolen it can no longer be accurately called wealth.
Booty is not wealth. Criminality does not generate wealth. Criminality destroys wealth.
If there’s creative destruction (there is) there must also be destructive destruction - & that is what criminality is.
“Possession is 9/10ths of the law” but closer to 10/10ths of legality - not law - is possessed by “demon” criminals. For now.
Deus ex machina legality, or AI, or anything else, is just people. Certain people.
And strawmen, same as moths, seek out the flames. And find them, too.
Genociding the natives, “Civil War,” was home turf. History poetry-rhymes just don’t stick, is all.
Eternal recurrence.
Without the sensibility the abyss looks like a keeping up with the Joneses swimming pool in way too many backyards in Phoenix. The meta-Jones have chillers on their abysses & everybody elses’ heats up to bathwater but all those blue dots look good from the air & low earth orbit. And looks are all to those who have little, or nothing, inside.
Yep. Human nature is static. Bounded function. A note in a bottle floating in the ocean. Moby’s ocean.
Pipsqueak human nature is subordinate, completely, to nature.
And nature rate limited the rate-setting usurers by putting it into their defective nervous systems that they can control nature, be the masters rather than the emissaries (McGilchrist) an actually more broadly intelligent species would otherwise strive to be.
Nature pulls the wings off everything. And, just for added sadistic pleasure, or engineering limitations, lets Daedalus’s get too close to the sun from time to too many times.
Nice talk.
Just looked at the list of Lions Gate flicks. Some I enjoyed.
Didn’t see Atlas Shrugged listed.
(Man, whoever did that one underperformed. They shoulda’ got Val Kilmer to spice up the Gary Cooper’ish JG with some Doc Holliday flair.)
Who Is John Galt? He ain’t nobody.
Rand personified the one the old commercials warned never to mess with - Ma Nature.
Second-handers help themselves with both hands to not being able to help themselves.
Instead of Escher’s Hands Drawing Hands with these artists the eraser-side of the pencil is down.
Very informative and stimulating conversation, and to Frank's point about getting to anything approaching the truth, takes some real work. Thanks guys!!
Thanks, I really enjoyed the talks. I hope to ride this out in northern Canada, but we also have been looking at Argentina for a backup. But damn that flight, and the language barrier. I'm off to research Premium, thanks Mr. Giustra!
Fine. Take a risk. As i said, I have no problem with Bitcoin “aspiring” to be like gold. But that’s speculation. I am not OK with what Saylor says which is beyond ridiculous. He is doing the bitcoin crowd a disservice. IMO
You misunderstood me. Never said that. I am a big backer of many junior companies. I said there are too many with terrible prospects that just burn a lot of overhead
I did believe Trump was against war. That's what he spoke about for the past few years yet now his actions are showing otherwise. His bombing of Yemen and his sending bombs and billions of dollars to Israel and supporting Israel to continue their genocide against Gaza. Thank you for speaking to the truth about what's really happening and how Israel/AIPAC is controlling the US.
Bitcoin - I think you need to take into consideration that we are moving to a digital and robotic world. Things hold value because of what humans think they are worth. Your house is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Same with gold or bitcoin. You are coming from a physical asset mindset. This new generation is thinking with a digital mindset. The key here is to get them to buy into or transform their thinking into digital investing. That is the gamble Michael is taking.
That's a fair point Thomas. I'd add the question; in the coming AI wave what will AI agents or whatever the name will be expect payment in? It's not going to be in gold coins and unlikely to be in gold on a blockchain (assuming this gets off the ground). It could be a stable coin although their reasoning will likely steer to them to Bitcoin due to it's scarcity, deflationary nature and decentralised set-up. No bank account needed. Don't get me wrong- I'm a fan of gold and love gold coins. But, I'm just doubtful AI will think the same.
Yes
Why is Frank involved in Colombia, what is his gain there...sounds fishy
He is wrong on how the sphere of influence play out : there is only 2 items in the menu hamburgers or chicken lomein. Full stop.
Why bring Giustra to this show?
Frank, the Bew Zealand phyle will warmly welcome you!
An interesting interview- thank you. Frank's take on a number of themes come across as well informed and credible. The discussion on the 3 reasons for non performance of junior miners was right on the button. It would have been good to hear more on whether and how this will change. My view is that perhaps it won't. Unless a company becomes a target for a company takeover. Cash flow alone doesn't seem to move the needle any more. Perhaps, the commodity alone (with it's slow and steady assent) is the better play for the average investor rather than having to deal with all the other potential landmines associated with a mining company. Living with smaller upside is certainly more comfortable than these 50% declines that seem to happen all too easy in this game.
It was welcome to see Frank being more open regards Bitcoin than previously. Fair play to him considering he has been so focused on the metals. Perhaps he's read Saifedean Ammous also. I would push back on the comments on BTC being purely a risk asset. I think the turmoil of the past days showed an interesting development. Bitcoin held up much better than anything else bar treasuries. Better than gold. It's uncorrelated to the financial system and should act as such. I think it will ultimately morph into that. It hasn't until now. Will we look back at the events of the events of the last few days and see that as the point when it started to act like an uncorrelated asset?
Reset.
Presided over by those who precipitated it.
Means “reset.”
History of humanimal is Groundhog Day … & Bill Gates (et al) never, ever becomes Bill Murray & so never gains “enlightenment” nor gets Andie McDowell “in the end”s justifies the Epstein Island means.
“Same shit (which is the end in “question”), different day,” used to be a saying.
Doom/hope loops are the same loop, “reset” & synonyms are OCD locking/unlocking the doors (of perception? Huxley: was he fer it, agin it, or just an objective interlocutor of this electric chairway to heaven?) is an art(of the con)esian well-spring of sugar cereal (froot loops) that is its own cause & its own effect & solipsism metastasis unbounded within the all too bounded function that is h sapiens (a misnomer of conceit).
(Kelloggs has long since gone Kellanova.
“In 1876, John Harvey Kellogg became the superintendent of the Battle Creek Sanitarium (originally the Western Health Reform Institute founded by Ellen White), and his brother, W. K. Kellogg, worked as the bookkeeper. This is where corn flakes were created and led to the eventual formation of the Kellogg Company.”
Flakes & nuts, far & wide … see the “experiments” in “social proof” clocking how long it takes sanity to go along get along when it is committed to asylumerica, or any of the other tribal-thumping chapters on the map that isn’t the place/s at all.)
It won’t be an improvement for most people.
Just as the last 50 years, or so, haven’t been an improvement for most people.
Just as the honeybloodmeridianmoon post ww2 wasn’t an improvement, or that time frame’s cast & crew “the greatest.”*
*I was overly fond of Ali in my boy-time. But alas a whole lotta push-button reset OCD there. Jack Cashill’s Sucker Punch: The Hard Left Hook That Dazed Ali & Killed King’s Dream … & don’t even get me started on *that* King of Reset & Roll … suffice to say “competing” factions of oleaginous oligarch dry-gulchers will always be with ye.
Good old gold. Maybe the original & still best essential/non-essential business … as decided by the essential-on-high ones (or the high on their “essentialness” ones).
The gold cycle: it’s money, it’s legal, it’s not money, it’s illegal. Lather, rinse-in-an-acid-bath-&-skim-a-percentage, repeat. The mooch-masses love the laundromat: cleanliness is next to godliness, render unto seizer, etc.
State-controlled institutions amassing good old gold are weapons wielded by … precipitate individuals.
The geese of the golden egg clutch, & grasp, & hoard, & for-we-but-not-for-thee gaggle are archaeopteryx in geese-disguise. That’s a flying crocodile, ya’ll.
You will own nothing - batches? - but you will subscribe to the notion that you do - we don’t need no stinkin’ batches! - & you will be happy - Treasure of the Sierra Madre
If enough guillotines could be robotized to auto reset-decapitate the “principate”-precipitate & run continuously until all those essential to the problems ones were solved, then, & only then, would a reset worth the name be possible.
That’s just a spitball, tho, without a snowball’s chance in hell.
To hell & gone away to Uruguay, etc, may be the best anyone can do if they can do.
But … it isn’t as if Alias Smith & Casey Jones rode Conestogas, lightening load along way - mother misses her piano & bone china - to that new-old frontier.
Time & place “timing” & luck of the flop-draw … are not usually quantified accurately.
A is the first vowel but E(mbezzlement) is the largest trowel that asphalt-redacts the books.
Count blessings accurately … & include those in pitches so as not to be gov contract asphalt-patchers of the angiogenic, tumor-feeding, roman roads.
And /or as the man told the boy at the end of The Road, “Stay off the roads.”
Wonder what ol’ Cormac thought of ol’ Huxley. I’d bet heavy he had that one’s number.
A smidge of hope, positivity, goes a long way. Beyond that is too much, snare/delusion/con - always has been. Is how Ali took Foreman (hope-a-dope) & is how those black muslims took Ali.
Hopebacked turtles all the way down, mostly.
And Melville’s spermy Moby just shakes his battering ram head: wtf is wrong with you people?
Moby don’t blow thar bubbles, he just exhales. It’s the Essexian Pequodian I’m-sold salers (saylors, too) that blow bubbles until pop goes those weasels.
Incentives? No. Nobody forces most of these bribes. You take the bribe, you do the time.
And marks will remain irrational longer than water on the blue, depressed, great depression, planet will remain the universal solvent that Moby continuously lurks within.
Not only can “you keep saying something that’s not true” all the youse to whom it may concern & apply must continue to keep on plying the lying. Eagles eyes again: You Can’t Hide Your Lying Eyes.
Trump is a bully is weak. Whale-ship Essex Empires are bully pulpits are weak. Social proof people who are bullied & who bully themselves to go along with ahab/ituate after ahab/ituate after ahab/ituate are weak ahab/itches … so to speak.
H sapiens most incipient-burgeoning characteristic & quality is weakness. And the qualitative easest-weakest “they” minorities have trapped the quantitaive easest-weakest majorities … as usual.
The weak eat the weak & “identify as” strong. Always has it been thus & better bet that it will continue. At least until morale improves.
Essex lunchables shipmates, Apocalypto “sacrificial” offerings to the masses-god … this was a fun one, & much truer that typical Louis L’Amour formulaics, Ravenous:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7BDiNktrLU
Hotel California, yes. Leaving after checking out is impossible because Get(ing) Over It is impossible … & because merely getting over is the fever-dream of too many:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2uRRDV63ns
A ain’t A. A is B. A/Bscam. Retards all around:
SYDNEY PROSSER
Like I said. You never said that. I
said that. We gotta get over on all
these guys. That’s what we need to
be thinking about right now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HZK6Yk6vPc
(Get off the) Long Black Roman Road … which is really more like an enormous (Paved Paradise & Put Up A)parking lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_2E8ecUYyg
Smiling, chuckling, about “singularity” wet dream great “replacements” “culling” of all the “useless eaters” is not a good look.
Besides, after “they’ve” come for all the usual Neimoller suspects (socialists, trade unionists, jews), if it ever got that far, they’d be coming for youse, too. Even in Uruguay.
Neither is Kurzweil’s fantasy to use tech to become a female hard-used by a good look.
Heart of Darkness Col Kurtz/weil is a freak. Harari is a freak. Don’t Die Bryan Johnson is a freak … & the recent gab-fest he had with Mike Israetel who shared his own tech-mediated/facilitated sex-drenched desires is a freaks of a feather dodo bird gasp, too.
All this nerd’s & enginerds’ revenge* stuff is not going to surmount the pathological hubris/compensation which fuels it.
“Power” doesn’t feed anybody - but it does feed upon itself. It’s a self-modulating, but never correcting, appetite disorder. The non-tech term already mentioned for this nutbag is “freaks.”
*I have wondered if maybe more spartan-stoic-like how things would be different if youngsters formative years included as a matter of course years of self-defense & racing training before they were turned loose on the world’s otherwise-designed roman roads. Fewer pocket-protector pipsqueaks with murderous chips on shoulders perhaps.
“Like skyscrapers” that implode into footprint @freefall … same as the continuous compulsion to Babel Tower “build” does.
Apparently there is no number of rhyming refrains adequate to inform sensibilities away from “this time its different.”
Not enough poetic sensibility I suppose.
Too much LH dominance … well, “dominance.”
Linear item vetos do not cookbook away spiral reality. Ever.
Graham Hancock, probably others, speak to the comings & goings of Techowski brothers (now “siblings”) & “power.”
Wachowskis did comics. Then became cartoons.
Those “boys” are the poster children for the wanted posters that contain the V for Vendetta visages of all the bounties that are soon or late, Nero or far-oh!, collected on all the freaks whose pathological appetites drive & consume them & their fellow travelers.
“Wealth.” Can be stolen. Is stolen. Stolen on a massive scale. But once stolen it can no longer be accurately called wealth.
Booty is not wealth. Criminality does not generate wealth. Criminality destroys wealth.
If there’s creative destruction (there is) there must also be destructive destruction - & that is what criminality is.
“Possession is 9/10ths of the law” but closer to 10/10ths of legality - not law - is possessed by “demon” criminals. For now.
Deus ex machina legality, or AI, or anything else, is just people. Certain people.
And strawmen, same as moths, seek out the flames. And find them, too.
Genociding the natives, “Civil War,” was home turf. History poetry-rhymes just don’t stick, is all.
Eternal recurrence.
Without the sensibility the abyss looks like a keeping up with the Joneses swimming pool in way too many backyards in Phoenix. The meta-Jones have chillers on their abysses & everybody elses’ heats up to bathwater but all those blue dots look good from the air & low earth orbit. And looks are all to those who have little, or nothing, inside.
Yep. Human nature is static. Bounded function. A note in a bottle floating in the ocean. Moby’s ocean.
Pipsqueak human nature is subordinate, completely, to nature.
And nature rate limited the rate-setting usurers by putting it into their defective nervous systems that they can control nature, be the masters rather than the emissaries (McGilchrist) an actually more broadly intelligent species would otherwise strive to be.
Nature pulls the wings off everything. And, just for added sadistic pleasure, or engineering limitations, lets Daedalus’s get too close to the sun from time to too many times.
Nice talk.
Just looked at the list of Lions Gate flicks. Some I enjoyed.
Didn’t see Atlas Shrugged listed.
(Man, whoever did that one underperformed. They shoulda’ got Val Kilmer to spice up the Gary Cooper’ish JG with some Doc Holliday flair.)
Who Is John Galt? He ain’t nobody.
Rand personified the one the old commercials warned never to mess with - Ma Nature.
Second-handers help themselves with both hands to not being able to help themselves.
Instead of Escher’s Hands Drawing Hands with these artists the eraser-side of the pencil is down.
https://i.etsystatic.com/10694516/r/il/b30671/1004780879/il_794xN.1004780879_2re2.jpg
First time coming to this channel and hearing Frank. I enjoyed the conversation and much of his perspectives.
Very informative and stimulating conversation, and to Frank's point about getting to anything approaching the truth, takes some real work. Thanks guys!!
Thanks, I really enjoyed the talks. I hope to ride this out in northern Canada, but we also have been looking at Argentina for a backup. But damn that flight, and the language barrier. I'm off to research Premium, thanks Mr. Giustra!
Wow— fabulous interview, as promised..Always learn from you , Doug, Matt and Frank. Thank you all!
Thanks
Fine. Take a risk. As i said, I have no problem with Bitcoin “aspiring” to be like gold. But that’s speculation. I am not OK with what Saylor says which is beyond ridiculous. He is doing the bitcoin crowd a disservice. IMO
You misunderstood me. Never said that. I am a big backer of many junior companies. I said there are too many with terrible prospects that just burn a lot of overhead
I did believe Trump was against war. That's what he spoke about for the past few years yet now his actions are showing otherwise. His bombing of Yemen and his sending bombs and billions of dollars to Israel and supporting Israel to continue their genocide against Gaza. Thank you for speaking to the truth about what's really happening and how Israel/AIPAC is controlling the US.
Bitcoin - I think you need to take into consideration that we are moving to a digital and robotic world. Things hold value because of what humans think they are worth. Your house is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Same with gold or bitcoin. You are coming from a physical asset mindset. This new generation is thinking with a digital mindset. The key here is to get them to buy into or transform their thinking into digital investing. That is the gamble Michael is taking.
That's a fair point Thomas. I'd add the question; in the coming AI wave what will AI agents or whatever the name will be expect payment in? It's not going to be in gold coins and unlikely to be in gold on a blockchain (assuming this gets off the ground). It could be a stable coin although their reasoning will likely steer to them to Bitcoin due to it's scarcity, deflationary nature and decentralised set-up. No bank account needed. Don't get me wrong- I'm a fan of gold and love gold coins. But, I'm just doubtful AI will think the same.